The
reason for this is
that the Organization of the Masters is so
important that under no conditions
must
its ultimate secrets
be revealed or its
processes impaired, excessively impaired. And
these are the rules, that’s all. What do we mean by this? Well, it means,
don’t you know, that the individual for all critical events is available
for direct operations, in which case
they act as a total personality, the
whole thing is then fused again for
such purposes. But during times when
the Adepts are not carrying on through
that individual certain special processes
and so on, this division takes place
again and the person moving
around in the world just has to live
as best as he or she can. That’s all. Now for studious
purposes the reunion of the total personality
can be sustained for hours on end because,
don’t you see, if an individual is writing quietly in some sequestered
place where the chance of interruption
and so on is very small, this vital
part can be let out, as it were, to
collaborate in the job without much
risk. But when, as in the case of HPB’s early work, she
was moving around in all kinds of circles,
you know - dinner parties, liquor, tobacco, trains,
all sorts of things for hours on end - maybe days on end - this kind of divorced condition
went on. And she was tempestuous by
nature anyhow. And so the tempests
and the outbursts and all kinds of
things which - they had their place too - but which don’t
represent the total being, were experienced by all kinds of folk. Well,
that’s how she was.
Now
it was due to her being
willing to do this that all kinds of things
were done that are reported
in the book. And you know
in 1880 she was visiting
with a man
named Sinnett - A.P. Sinnett
in Simla, which is up against the hills in
the Himalayas several hundred miles south
of Cashmere [Kashmir], you
know. Cashmere’s over there like that, and then
you go ‘round the Himalayas and come down into the big curve, the big rampart,
that is you come along to Simla. And
in that quadrant of the Himalayas are
many sacred and wonderful old institutions.
So there she was, you see, on the periphery
of this, in the highlands where the
psychic atmosphere is much better than
it is in the plains, and there
she was available for this kind of
communication. This was all no doubt
planned, you understand, in considerable
measure; and Sinnett was from the
old days a man who’d
incarnated many times with her and
other people, I will say, in our circle.
A wonderful chap really, a wonderful
man, rather worldly but very wonderful,
with a tender heart and a wife
almost even more marvelous than he
was from the theosophical point of
view - and a small
boy, Dennis Sinnett. And he had the
guts you see, and the innate ability,
innate instinct to invite Madame Blavatsky
to come and be his guest. He read
about her and she came
along. Some friends had met her - mutual
friends - and she came there. And there,
don’t
you see, the Masters who’d come near enough psychologically to do phenomena even in
the midst of those, you know, port
and whisky pegs and things like that,
to do phenomena - they used her for
this purpose and that is how Sinnett
got involved in this. He saw these
phenomena - you can read about them
yourself if you haven’t. Fascinating
stuff, absolutely the most romantic
book on God’s earth. Dramatic, Romantic isn’t the word.
Most dramatic book on God’s earth.
Now
he got near enough
to these things to write a letter to the Master
Koothumi you see, and
I guess
HPB encouraged him to do so.
The latter was delivered and, as
you’ve heard
me say many times, anyhow if you’ve read the book you know, Sinnett being a practical
man thought he would convince everybody
at one crack. So he suggested that
an entire issue of the London Times
-I think I have it right - should be transported from London by
magical means and be shown to everybody - the government, you see, had its residence
in Simla in the hot weather - shown to all the members of the government including the
Viceroy, and they would countersign
in the margin that they had seen it
on that day. You understand there was
no air mail in those days, they
were still sailing ships too, some
of them - steam of course in addition. He thought they would all countersign
that they had seen this complete copy
of the London Times in Simla on the
day it was published in London - see? And then when the London copies came, it would prove that it
had been transported from London by
magical means. He was going to convert
everybody with one issue of the London Times.
That is the first letter in the book - the answer of the Master,
see!
Now
it’s a very interesting item because lots of people, they come here to
this camp all the time
and they say to us:
if the Masters are
so wonderful, why
don’t They teach everybody
everything right away? Well, the answer
is because everybody
else isn’t so wonderful!
That’s the answer. We’re a heck of a job lot, between you and me! Well now, He tries to
explain, but even Sinnett didn’t get it really. Don’t you see, He explains this, and in
retrospect one can see very clearly
there would be other explanations of
such a thing. I’ll
give you an example - somebody might carefully forge all those signatures, and how would
you prove afterward they were not forged?
And that’s exactly what went on with these
phenomena - plenty of explanations, crazy ones no doubt, but from the point
of view of people who don’t have this philosophy, less crazy than the fact itself. The fact itself, from
the point of view of the Englishman
of the 1880's was just sheer lunacy.
See that? That, we gotta get used
to. Well,
that’s how the book opens. It opens in these words - this is how
the Master answered that letter: “Esteemed brother and friend” - that’s how He addresses
him - “Precisely because the test of the London newspaper would close the mouths of the
skeptics, it is unthinkable”. See? It would be for the time being a stopper. You can’t do that
to people. If you completely arrest
their processes by something they cannot
explain, they must either go crazy
or think you’re a liar or something. That’s how He starts His
communication with Sinnett. Very wonderful.
Now Sinnett got deep in it and he communicated with all kinds of people. He published
stuff in his paper, and he tried over and over to get the Masters to agree to show
themselves to him, and finally once the Master did appear in a dream so vividly that Sinnett
waked up with the memory, but the adjustments necessary to fit into this scheme, Mr
Sinnett never quite made. But we owe to him the existence of this book, this unparalleled
book.
And
as you know, there
was associated with him a man named A.C. Hume,
a Scotsman who was in the Civil
Service,
in the journalistic
world in the Civil
Service. Mr. Hume was even a tougher
character - I don’t say ‘cause he was Scottish, but just by nature - and
clever but vain. And after many, many
struggles with these two men and all kinds
of complications and writing and writing,
and writing - you see that’s an immense amount of
writing in there - most of it is from the Masters, a few are the letters returned of
Hume and Sinnett - finally it was clear that Sinnett and Hume could never really get
over into this other system. They
couldn’t just give up, you see, and say: I’ve got to start from the other
end - always trying to do it from this end, you see, the world’s end instead of from the
inside out. And there was no field
theory, there was nothing then, don’t you see, to help
these people. We’re not being critical when we say these things.
Now
I must explain one
other thing before we discuss. We must understand
that the purpose of all
this was
not merely to convince Sinnett,
or to get one or two
books written which they did not get written
through Sinnett, and
that. That was not the only
thing. The system that the Masters run is incredibly
vast and complex. The
Theosophical Society is a nice little institution
that They have got a few volunteers
to get done. It has
the possibilities of being a great and noble
institution - right now it isn’t. I want to be clear about
that. I know it’s got some properties, physical properties like this one. It’s got a
Headquarters at Olcott [Wheaton, Illinois]
, several Lodges own their Headquarters,
we’ve got one in New York
we own, and there’s a big estate at Adyar and there’s property owned in Sydney, Australia
and so on - but property isn’t The Theosophical Society, is it? Any millionaire could buy all
those properties tomorrow. What about
the members? The members are about
half as numerous as they were twenty
years ago. What’s the quality of the members? What’s the
thinking of the Society? Mr Sri Ram
is doing what he can in a quiet, steady,
careful way. It is very behind on its
program, which you hear me talk about
all the time. It’s a fine
institution - boy, it could do marvelous
things and it will. I mean there will be enough - They
say so themselves - there will be enough
members left twenty years from now
to really get a good start again.
And I have no doubt they have the
right people lined up for this,
to make the new start, just as they
had HPB and a few others. There will
be another gang - they’re coming in now actually - mature enough and strong enough and they
will know enough, and in the next
ten or fifteen years they will take this thing up. Actually
this won’t
happen unless we work, you understand, we can’t just sit back and say: fifteen years from
now we shall be rescued. It just doesn’t work like that. There’s gotta be people doing
something now providing the attitudes,
the material, and so on. Right?
But,
what I want to say
is it’s only a little thing out of the total operation. They never die,
They never quit, there’s no interruption in Their communication or Their sources of power.
They’re an undying force which incarnates, which appears in individuals
through the ages and as the few succeed
the many come up; and thus this stream,
like the protoplasm, keeps communicating
up and down, and it never dies. Now one of the things
They had in mind was what
we now see. One of the reasons for
starting the Society and moving its
Headquarters to India was the determination
that India shall be the seat of the
revival of true learning, ‘cause she has the continuous tradition, she has the Dharsanas and the
Vedanta and everything else. And there
should be established in India the
Headquarters of an organization that from India could do what you can’t do from Europe. That’s one of
the things They were determined to
do. This involved the freeing of India,
which They foresaw. But the freeing
of India
in terms of
the orbit of the Indo-British commonwealth
as against Russia, for example, which
of course was trying its best to come
into India all those years,
imperialistic Russia. Now,
a very interesting thing happened which
I’d like to
mention, and then let’s talk more freely. When They found out that Hume was no good,
They knew that anyhow in advance, a
very interesting use was made of Mr
Hume. You may remember that Mr Sinnett
was encouraged - you know he used the “Pioneer” his
newspaper so much for this kind of
purpose that the proprietors got sick
of it. The people who owned the newspaper
got sick of it with his occultism and
his Blavatsky and his tea
cups and things, magical teacups. So
They called him back to London and
made terms which he didn’t like, and during that time the Masters worked up the idea of a newspaper
owned by Indian capital edited by Sinnett,
you see that? Marvelous. And They called
this the “Phoenix” - they were going to call it the “Phoenix”. Well, Mr Sinnett had cold feet, and
what about owners that are natives,
don’t you know, and all this stuff, so it never came to
anything. The Masters even got some
of the Rajas to pledge capital and
They could have put this over, there’s no question, but They didn’t bring it off.
Now
an interesting thing
happened. In 1884, owing to the work of The
Theosophical Society which
had only
been in India two years,
mind you - I mean,
established in Adyar two years - it had been
in Bombay a year or two before that, since
1880, two years it had been in Bombay a
year or two before that, since 1880,
two years it had been in Bombay
and two years in Adyar, that’s four years altogether - there was such excitement in India
from The Theosophical Society that
the Indian National Congress was started.
I don’t know
how many of you know that - that was
a result of the Theosophical Society.
The Society met in Bombay in 1884,
had its annual convention there, there
was no Benares Headquarters in those
days, and a number of people including
a man I knew very well, Sir
S Subramania Ier, went to Madras in
order to have a political meeting independent
of the Society and not to cloud the
Society’s history or work with political forces. Members of the
T.S., I want to make that clear. And
they gathered some politicos in Madras
who had attended the public meetings,
and they formed a committee which next
year met in
Bombay at the Indian National Congress.
How many of you never heard that before?
Well I’ll be darned, I have lived in vain! You know I think I have been repeating
myself all the time. It looks as though
I’m not telling you all the truth - Now I must tell you an interesting
thing. The government was, of course,
watching this through the C.C.V - that’s Criminal
Investigation Department, you understand,
and to be political in India those
days was criminal, see? It was all
open, but it was criminal. You know
what the government did?
They picked out A.O. Hume to join in
the meeting in Bombay as a spy in behalf
of the government - isn’t that fascinating? He was too stubborn and thick-headed to be any
good for occultism, but he turned out
to be useful as a spy in the Indian
National Congress. And in spite of
all that he was, the Masters could
use him without his knowing anything
about it. And you know, A.O. Hume is
now regarded as one of
the fathers of the
Indian National
Congress to this day. I’m telling you this because unless you see the ramifications you
don’t get any idea of the way in which the Masters run things. They are
involved in all great political, historical,
scientific and every other thing that
goes on. Everything. There’s nothing
that advances human welfare that’s significant where They are not at hand, see? Just take
this from me, you don’t have to believe it, but listen.
Well,
they never got the “Phoenix” going, and the Congress went on from 1884 passing
resolutions and keeping its strength
a little and so on,
going up and down hill,
until Mrs Besant came out to India
in 1893.
She had been watched
by the Masters long
before she joined the
Society. Sinnett was warned to take
interest in
her long before The Secret
Doctrine was published which brought her into the circle. She came out in 1893,
and her name is in the book here by
the way in one passage, and she understood
a lot of this and she started to
work in India, and by 1914 - by about 1910 she had joined the Indian
National Congress. She didn’t start as a politico you see. She started to get the confidence
of the Indian people, and to work up
a social and educational apparatus
which could do this work and get leaders,
young people that she trained, all
kinds of young people,
hundreds of them, nobody in the West
knows any more the names are almost
forgotten, some are dead of course,
she entered
the Indian
Congress. And by 1914, just before
the war began, she had got the Congress
to proclaim home rule as its objective.
They had never done that before, you see.
And she
bought the newspaper, the Madras Standard,
and renamed it New India, and the “Phoenix” which couldn’t be started in 1884 was started
in 1914! They never quit either in the Himalayas! What They need They get, bit by bit.
I
was in Madras, I was in Colombo as a matter
of fact, came up from Colombo and was in
on the start of New India. Exciting business you know, frightfully exciting. Mrs Besant had
been coming home from England, and
somebody heard the Madras Standard was for sale.
They cabled to her on the boat and
she, without knowing all the ramifications
or how much money would be involved,
cabled “buy it”. She did that all the time, that’s how she got the
Happy Valley. She got herself in for
about $120.000 worth of commitments
without knowing what $120.000 was.
When we told her in pounds she said: “That’s quite a lot of money,
isn’t it”! She bought the Madras Standard, and we all rallied around and oh I wrote some
of the finest editorials you ever read!
I wrote a very learned one on “The Increase of
Irrigation and its Relation to Precipitation
in Western States” - did you ever read that?
(laughter) And so on - And away we went, you see. And by 1919 the Parliament had
declared, the King of England had declared
from the throne and Parliament had
acted and India was on her way to freedom.
Now all this is behind this you see.
Thousands of things
like that which They know what They’re doing. Schools and new-sub-races and scientific
developments. The Master Morya tells
in there about Crookes. You know Crookes
got his inspiration - you know, Sir William Crookes - he got his inspiration from Them about the
fourth state of matter. And They say
he’s only made a beginning - and now we know that
he only made a beginning. They have
protected all these big people as far
as they allow the protection. Well,
that’s what’s in the Mahatma Letters. Well let’s talk about it.
Question:Aren’t there one of two other things?
Fritz: Oh boy! it’s a fabulous compendium of occult knowledge. You see it was written
in privacy.
Question: Although I hold HPB
and A.P. Sinnett and Olcott in great esteem,
I’ve always
wondered why it is that they - why
it says in the Letters that they were the best
material available. Because they did have a
few defects, and Sinnett, of course
I should hardly . . . it was because
Sinnett was so .....
that the Mahatma Letters had to be
written .... not
saying anything in a critical way.
Fritz: Wonderful question
Voice: Can you repeat the question?
Fritz: The question is - in
the Mahatma Letters They hold these people
in high esteem and say that they are the best
They can find and so on, but
at the same time -
may I put it this way, I’ll paraphrase you a little bit - they turn out to be quite a job lot.
I’m putting it much
more harshly than you do, but anyway
that’s the gist of your remark, isn’t it? Well, this is the
most fascinating question of the lot,
thank you. Because, you see, it raises
the question of the relationship
of more or
less ordinary
people, I mean people involved in the
world, to the Masters who are not involved
in the world. You see
it raises that question. And this
is the
great question. Well not, I will start with a philosophical question
that will become immediately practical.
You know lots of people think that
philosophy isn’t practical. But the
truth is that philosophy is the most
practical - everything else is secondary.
Just put that in your pipe and smoke
it - if you are a smoker! Let me
explain something. The Masters, and
I mean now the Dhyân Chohans - I don’t even mean Koothomi - are the only beings
who are absolutely free. See that?
Everything below a Dhyân Chohan - that is a radiant
Lord who only exists in the utterly
non-material - everything below that
level from the highest planes of nature
down, anybody bound in that system
here even if he’s spiritual as
heaven knows what, is bound, and is
not free. And since the object of all
Adepts and all highest Beings is this
freedom, now let me say something to
you - the last thing the
Masters will ever do is impair your
freedom - that is the last thing They
will ever do. You can be a darn fool
on the largest possible scale,
and They will graciously permit you
to be that, see? The one thing
They won’t do is to impair your freedom. Now what does this mean?
It means They can only work with volunteers
- that’s the first proposition, you see. They’re
restriction is to volunteers. Now how
many people are volunteering in your
circle to be part of this show? Not
many. And people read this book all
the time, you see that, and they
think about it and everything, and
they remain exactly as they were practically
for years on end. They don’t volunteer, they don’t do anything much. Maybe they feel better - fine.
They’re more interested, they’re more curious. The book’s been read by thousands of
people; but the number of people who
say:”Boy, this is the biggest cause I ever heard of” and who pitch in and give relentless cooperation is very few. So right
away, you see, thousands of talented
people are out of the picture. Am I clear so far?
Now
there’s another thing. The circle of people that are really qualified to
do any cooperating
is very largely restricted
by a practical consideration.
It follows that Karma
is real in human relations.
I mean if you believe
in Karma, you know
the Law of Justice operates in
human relations. Now
if anybody is sufficiently
important spiritually
and intellectually
and morally and so on, to have been near the
Masters in the past,
the likelihood is that
he will be near the
Masters now and in
the future. I mean
if he amounts to
anything, keeps it up, right? Isn’t that natural? Then don’t you see the Masters are
restricted further by the circle that
is by habituation near to the Masters
in the past. Now Sinnett in his
last life - I’ll just give you a fact - was a consul in Rome during one of the late
Emperors, about 100 years A.D. And
the Master Koothoomi had been what’s called the
......(?).... Flamen de Allis (?) in
Rome at that time, a kind of Bishop
you know - I don’t
mean Roman Catholic, but old Roman
religion Bishop, so to speak. And they
had been very close to each other in
a very worldly and corrupt society.
Now this and other
associations with Master Koothoomi
in other lives had given Mr Sinnett
privileges. This is a privilege, you
see, to do the job. You see the drift
of all this? It incorporates new
principles of relationship - nothing to do with intellectual ability, or any such worldly status.
Question: You mean to serve is a privilege not lightly given.
Fritz: Oh yes, yes. And this
is unique. To be in on a thing like this in
the early days is really something.
You don’t take Tom, Dick and Harry for that! Now Hume is another story. Hume
was an accident, so to speak, in this
way. The Masters wanted Hume
to be used, but They didn’t want him informed. They knew this risk, you see, and Sinnett is reproved
in one of the Letters because
he told Hume everything, or
far too much. And They had
to keep telling him “don’t do this” you see, and so Hume got hold of a lot of language and notions
he was completely unfitted to understand.
And with his intellectualism running
loose, you see, he thought: “I know more than Sinnett”, But morally he was not anywhere near
Sinnett - I don’t mean morally in the sense of ordinary morals - spiritually mostly. Nowhere
near. Well, Hume was all right. They
made what They could of him. They sent
him as a spy to the Indian National
Congress. It’s a very complicated question that you raise, you see,
very complicated.
Voice:I probably would not have got such an answer anywhere else.
Fritz: But
coming back to this question of freedom, that is really the
nub of your question. The object
of the Adept is to know enough
and to be enough -
you know, spirituality and knowledge, so that he is completely
free once and for all.
And the achievement
of that is a terrific
undertaking. It is absolutely unimaginably difficult.
And so I say, the last
thing that anybody
that knows anything
about this, let alone who has achieved it, wants to do to
anybody, is to impair their freedom.
Now
this brings a point
home to us. You take this property right
here - I’m going to be very
practical now - this property has been
going for thirty years. And there are present
people that have been battling all
those thirty years. They are contributing
their money, their abilities, their patience
- and I may say their impatience - and their tenacity
of purpose, and their confidence
in one another, and God knows what,
huh? And they have got something wonderful, see. One of the most marvelous spots in the United States. Believe
me I see a lot of them. It’s beautiful, it’s sequestered, it’s - although there have been battles on this
ground they have never been vicious,
horrible battles, see, that I know
anything about - it’s
really very wonderful. And we have
friends here like that tree - you know
you just can’t win that
kind of circumstances easily, that’s hard work. Well, here we are. We’ve been at it thirty
years and still the number’s pretty small - the people who mean business about this - very
small. Why is this? Well, that’s because what’s real is hard to understand. And the number
of people who want to do anything about
it that do understand is small, and
we’re all locked
up in the world one way or another,
we have our Karma and our problems
and everything else. We have duties,
sacred duties you can’t lay down. You can see it’s very difficult to
do anything along these lines, it’s not easy. It’s not like starting a factory or some ordinary
school - an art gallery, there are
bushels of artists, ten cents a dozen,
and they could start an art gallery
good, bad, or indifferent. But Occultism,
this ultimate truth, that is the most
tough thing to possess and use. So there are very few, that’s all. Were they remarkable?
History will have to tell us how remarkable
were Blavatsky and Sinnett.
One
thing is true, and
I think you had this in your mind. They speak
very harshly sometimes, brutally,
of Blavatsky, don’t they? You read the Letters huh? Brutally almost.
But you must understand first of all
that they were private letters.
Second. They told her blunter truths that They ever spoke
of her. They never deceived her.
What is more, she
spoke the truth when she felt like
it too - don’t forget that! When she was real mad with
somebody she thought wasn’t fair, she went right up to Shigatse and said so! That’s what
They want, you see. There’s no concealing in this group.
Question: Did the Masters ever give permission for those Letters to be made public?
Fritz: That’s a question I can’t answer, you see, because I wasn’t involved in that. The
Master Koothoomi says once: “ They will never be published with my permission”. Well, what
does that mean? I don’t know. People say he must have given permission because he
could otherwise have had them destroyed quietly.
Question: You said that the Masters never interfere with our free will.
Fritz: That’s part of the answer. But you see there’s implied in this also, why didn’t They
have nice little fire in Sinnett’s apartment if They don’t want them published, and have them
burned up and that would be the end of it. Well you see, maybe they were published
without the Master Koothoomi’s permission. And maybe He grew to a state of indifference.
Maybe it was decided they are useful. They are fabulous. I can’t say, you see. I wasn’t in
on that. I don’t know.
Question: Well, Fritz, considering that they are so useful,
why do you think they have been so neglected in the Society.
You almost
never hear of them. We do hear about The Secret
Doctrine a lot - but this, not often. Now why is that?
Fritz: Well, it’s a very complicated question. It came up a little while ago, and we
answered only a small
part - we discussed
only a small part
of it, I’ll try to be more sufficient in what
I’m going to say now. I’m going to stand up for it too! First of all, we must understand very
clearly that these being letters to
individuals who are putting questions,
and since the original letters are
often lost, you only get one part of the story.
Second - as they are
letters, the Master is always trying
to correct the errors in the interrogator’s mind, and He
overdevelops the thing that will correct
it for him . . . so the result is that
the book is filled with a
vast collection
of oddments.
Some are exaggerations of small points
in order to tell Sinnett something,
others are tremendous truths in
a couple
of words, see?
There’s
another thing too we must remember, there is
no English language for most of what They are
talking about, right? Yet They try
to do it in English as best They can. Oh,
it’s really a terrible business. Now when this was all finished - They stopped writing to
Sinnett about 1885 finally - They had effectively stopped before that actually, weren’t telling
him much anyhow - They had now Madame Blavatsky writing The Secret Doctrine and
everything that’s mentioned in here that They cared to develop fully, They developed
rather adequately there. And what might
be called the conceptual system
is in The Secret
Doctrine. You can come back from the S.D. to this and get immense new wealth
out of it. For example, in the S.D.
nothing is said about the inner kingdom.
I don’t mean inner round,
that’s another proposition altogether. Nothing is said about the inner kingdom.
But it’s
mentioned in here, in fact it’s identified. And I might talk about it some morning - it’s kind
of interesting. Scientifically it can
now be examined a little bit.
Now
there’s also the fact that the older people are - like Leadbeater - who were
involved in the
promise not to talk about these things publicly, kept their promise and they lived
a long time and under those circumstances
there wasn’t much encouragement to talk about
them. Jinarajadasa writes about them
a little bit, and in the July
issue of The Theosophist from Adyar there will be an article by me in which I quote from the
Mahatma Letters - I’m
going to discuss that passage here,
reincarnation from the Masters’ point of view. Well, I
don’t know - it is terribly hard stuff to manage too. One of the reasons
is this, and I’m trying
to clear that up here. The terms of
reference are the elements, not the
planes of nature, right? Does everybody
here know what I’m talking about? The elements are a large
spectrum, the total spectrum of material
and even non-material processes. The
planes of nature that most people study
is a little over three-fifths of
that spectrum less the two non-material
elements even. So it’s only a small piece, the planes of nature are only a small
piece of the whole. Now the Mahatma Letters are written out of the background of the
elements, the total spectrum. So you
try to cram this into the planes of
nature all the time, you see, and
you get a
terrible
confusion. Nobody's ever straightened
that out. There ought to be a lot more written about the
basis. Those are some of the reasons.
Question: Fritz, my reaction
to some of the Letters was that Koothoomi said “they” or “we” I presume meaning the Brotherhood of Buddhists, said They were Buddhists.
Is this so?
Fritz: This is somewhere where
you can at last say yes - but with some explanations. Yes,
that’s a fact.
Question: Alright, then on the
other hand, They say elsewhere that Their primary task is to
free man
from this
tremendous illusion of
religion and God and
the exploitation that’s
taken place in religion and so on. How do these add up?
Fritz: When I said yes a moment
ago that They are Buddhists, you understand
I meant They are followers
of Buddha,
and not followers of Buddhism.
Let me explain more
fully what is involved in Austie’s fascinating point. First of all I have to prescribe some
Theosophy as fact and you do what you
like with it. We are now in the middle of the
Aryan race. And the humanity to which we belong
is pretty well all here and present
on the
earth - not all, but the vast majority.
They are not all physically incarnated. The
bulk of them are dead, but they will come back later. This humanity
is a colossal
fact - absolutely
stupendous fact! It consists of many
thousands of millions of Monads who
have achieved the business of being
human beings. And this is a stupendous
fact in nature. I mean, we
may look like a job lot, but don’t worry, potentially this is an enormous proposition. Now,
that humanity has got to produce its
own leaders. It cannot live forever
on other Beings. It has its own creative
task in the cosmos to perform. It must
produce its own free beings.
The first one that it produced was
Gautama Buddha. And the moment He appeared
on the scene after lives and lives
and lives of endeavor that when he
achieved this final level of
a Dhyâni Buddha - that is an independent intelligence in Parabrahman that need never
surrender and presumably never will
surrender His individuality - I don’t want to say
individuality, His pointness, the Atman - we had a Being who, having been of our humanity
and now the perfection, was the sole model for all who came after. In that sense They are
Buddhists. They are not Buddhist in
the sense that they follow the Pitikas
or believe that the printed doctrines
are
all that there
are or any of this nonsense you see.
You know, Buddhism is corrupt too.
The Buddha said, make no figure
of me. He had not been dead
long before seven golden figures were
made anyhow etc. etc. You can’t quarrel with that,
that’s just fact. Now They are Buddhist in that sense, that They are all
part - I mean the
bulk of the Hierarchy, not quite all,
the Kumaras are from another society
than this terrestrial clump of people
- but anyhow the bulk of the Brotherhood
is staffed, is manned, it consists
of people who belong to this show.
Now there’s another thing. When Gautama
attained, I wont say He was appealed
to, but it came about that He reorganized
the Hierarchy - He was able to do so you see - for the sake of this humanity. He reorganized
it, made some adjustments in the requirements
for admission, and other things of
that kind, quite profound changes,
and in that sense He is almost the
Founder of the present state
of the organization. They are Buddhist
in that sense, right? He hasn’t gone away
anywhere. People like that don’t go somewhere you know. And it is in that sense, Austie,
I think we should follow this proposition.
Now, as for religion as confining us.
That’s true.
It’s a dreadful business, human beings do this to themselves. You know.
they get somebody wonderful that’s a clear flame of some kind, and they don’t even wait till he’s
dead to set up meanings of their own.
Well, what are you gonna do? We’re all a bunch of
fish.
Question: Fritz, could you comment on the Letter that begins on page 52?
Fritz:I’ve got my book. Is that the first edition?
Voice: Yes.
Fritz: I’ve nearly worn the paper in it to shreds now. Oh, the tenth letter
where They say They
don’t believe in God. That is germane to Austie’s remark . . . That’s a corker, that’s
a corker. Listen, we gotta get rid
of this word, God - that’s our trouble, see? I’m in favour
of it. You know Sinnott says the devil
has to be brought back - I’m in favour of that. I mean
the other Sinnott, Ed Sinnott. What
do you mean by God,
see? Well, we all know
there are all kinds
of ideas of God, a gentleman with a large beard,
huh? who spoke to Moses
on Mount Sinai. Some
think he wears gaiters
and a shovel hat, the more orthodox Church
of England people.
What is God? That’s the ten dollar question. . .
Question: Fritz, this is a very rough chapter, rough on God, as it were.
Fritz: It really is, yes.
Question: How far can we take that?
Fritz: I’d take it literally. It was written for Hume but - you know it was
written to blow Hume
to smithereens partly
- I take it literally.
Let me try to explain. Any thought of God
which is finite in
character, localized
in space, conditioned
by material process
etc etc, is by its nature false. The God that They would
like us to talk
about if we’re going to have to use
the term is infinite absolute perfection,
the sole cause of all phenomenal and
finite events whatsoever. And that’s obviously not even in this solar system alone, see? Now lots of
theosophists think that the Logos is
this. If you’re talking about the Logos of the solar
system, no. He’s just a local operation. I say that with all reverence, please. But
He’s just
a local operation. And what They are
trying here to do is restore the idea
of Parabrahm, right? to restore it
to use, not as a term but as a fact.
If I had my magnetor here I could
explain it again. The entire universe
is a magnetic field. There is no where
where magnetism in some degree does
not obtain. Now there are local intensifications
and
variations of magnetic fields, but
they tie into the infinite lines of
force of the infinite field. And thus
they are what they are because of the infinite magnetic field. Now
the field is also present with the
gravitational field - you heard that
last night, you see. Gravity and the
electromagnetic field are now operating
through you in every direction while
you sit here. And I don’t know how many dozen other fields. They are all properties of Parabrahman.
They are all infinite in extent and
perfect in their operation. THIS is
God. That’s all They are
trying to say. But it isn’t easy to grasp it because then everybody would say: Well how do we
get this? You get that by what is really
a very simple operation. There is in
this infinite reality non-material
points. Being non-material, they aint
anything, see? You get that? Do
they exist? What do you mean by exist?
Let’s not go into that. These points can be centers
of operation for infinitude. Being
infinitely small, they are part of
infinity. You can have any number
of them. They don’t pack up and occupy any space. These are called mulaprakriti
or Paramanus (?) It depends upon whether
you’re talking Vedanta or Naiya Vaisheshika.
Now, starting with that, one can imagine
the focusing of these infinite forces.
And out of that focusing come universes,
apples, and John Abbenhouse. In
that order. You can pick
out whether I classified him with apples
or the universe! Now this is the simplest
idea on God’s earth and that’s why it’s hard to grasp. But we really do not belong to the finite
changing universe, we don’t really belong. We’re just messed up in it.
Question: Fritz, I want to ask a loaded question.
Fritz: Come on!
Question: On the basis of what
the Master said about religion and the fact
that He was one of the individuals
who founded the T.S., why
does the T.S., why
are they - I don’t even like
the word tolerant - why do they say: well belong to any religion you want, this is alright,
see. Why not say; religion is out?
This is the thing we want to get away from. We’ve been
exploiting humanity with religion for
God knows how long. Why does this have
to go on? This seems to me to be a
paradox, unless your friend freedom
amongst the Society is the
thing that’s created this, not They.
Fritz: I think you have a
compound question here that has to be divided
into two parts. The first
is: why
do the Masters have anything
to do with religion?
For instance, Master Koothoomi is visiting
Lamas - or used to be - visiting Lamas in Tibet all the time. And
nothing is more superstitious than
Lamaism. And he’s doing his utmost for all kinds of
people mixed up in Lamaism, including
the redcaps who are smelly characters some
of them, occultly speaking. Anyhow, why? ‘Cause They got duties to do and They gotta help
all They can, help where They can.
They have to live somewhere. They would get
a rougher deal here on Orcas Island, I can tell
you, than They do in Tibet. They gotta live
somewhere, They gotta work, They have physical
bodies, They have duties to perform.
You don’t
perform duties for humanity without
getting down into the muck with them. That’s one thing,
another is this - only a very few people can grasp this impersonal principle and conduct
their lives accordingly, very few.
And the result is if you want to help
humanity you have to make a choice - either those few or get on with the general job too. . . . personally
I don’t
think there’s any harm in it because if you teach the common doctrine that lies
behind them all, you might get people
to get out of their individual framework.
Let’s talk about this more
. . . .Well, I tell you Austie, you’ve read Mahatma Letters, haven’t you. Quite a lot.
Voice: Yes sir.
Fritz: What do you think of the Master Koothoomi and the Master Morya, how do They
impress you? Are they impressive?
Voice: Well, I think that piece of literature, with the exception of one or two others possibly,
is the best piece of literature in the T.S.
Fritz: Hear, hear. I agree.
Voice: But I think it’s too dangerous for most theosophists to read.
Fritz: Right! You said it boy! And how wise They were to try to keep it quiet until They could
get hold of some people. In fact what ought to be done is to gradually open up the
dynamite in it.
Voice: I think that’s the answer to Gene’s question, why it isn’t better known. Because
people are, maybe unconsciously afraid
if they get the implications of what is said in some of
these things,
like
the tenth letter
for example, it would
blast things from stem to stern. And who wants to be blasted?
Fritz: Let me tell you something.
I wrote a piece called “Quest for the Quiet Mind” - some
of you have read it. And I worked like
a dog to state what I said there, and
it isn’t so bad.
But anyhow I did what I could and it
went to Gardner, E.L. Gardner. E. L.
Gardner is one of the senior members
of the T.S., positively one of the
most wonderful people you ever
saw. Now what I really did was unlock
the basic methodology in science and
in the Mahatma Letters - the same methodology really you see. I unlocked that and tried to
state it. I got a letter from Gardner.
He said to me, he said some nice things
about what I’d said
and so on, and he said: “It is also the most devastating thing I have read in a long
time” - and yet, Mahatma Letters is looking him in the eye every day, and
he’s one of our
best students of it. It never struck
him . . . . (words lost due to tape
change) It hit him terribly hard. I
agree with you, it’s dynamite.
Question: Fritz, isn’t this right in line with what you mentioned about the London Times
when the Masters would not transport
it to India because it would completely change the thought
processes
of people,
and that you couldn’t do.
Fritz: Yeah, you couldn’t do it. And those that tried would go crazy etc. etc. I think that
is a physical aspect
or physical representative of the intellectual dynamite
that’s in here. It’s
almost a frightening book in this sense
that it really gives
you the dimensions, the incredible dimensions of being
an occultist - or as far as that goes, a really honest human
being. It’s out of this world.
Question: It would seem that a complete answer to the
question about why the book is not read in the lodges must also
include an airing
of the reluctance of lodges to put this idea
of the Masters before the group as
not being a required thing to believe in in
order to take part in Lodge activities.
Question: I’d like to answer something to Harry’s question. I don’t think it matters two hoots
whether these men are Masters or not.
It’s what They have to say, the content of what
They’re saying that seems to me to be the thing that matters. If They’re saying the truth,
it doesn’t matter who says it, it seems to me. Now maybe Fritz won’t agree with this. I don’t
think (indistinct) . . . lend authority by -
Fritz: He’s raising the question of authority, isn’t he? I’ll tell you what I feel about this, and
I’ve said it here plenty of times. I think we should be very plain with everybody and say if
you haven’t read the history of the Society, if you don’t believe it was founded by people
who know a lot more than we know, there’s no question of whether They’re Masters or not,
see that, if you don’t believe that, don’t come in here! That’s not a dogma, you see that?
That’s historical fact. And why should people join the T.S. to say: “It’s a beautiful idea”
when they’re up against this dynamite. We’ve gotta warn them, and say: if you don’t
believe this, don’t come around here. If you don’t believe it you’ll think we’re a bunch of
nuts. We believe in a lot of bunk, or we’re deceiving them, whatever the case may be, in
order to take the collection on Sunday.
Question: Well, what you are really saying is that as a group we’re not very strong -
Fritz: That’s right , I say that. And that’s cause we’re not ready for this strong meat too. I’d
like to see every lodge have a class in this stuff. We’ve gone into this in New York for years
and it’s done us great good. We still admit people without these warnings and things, I
regret to say, in New York because I don’t run the Lodge. I would say to everybody who
wants to join the T.S. “I want to know, have you read these books, do you regard these
claims, these historical claims, you understand as authentic? If you don’t, I don’t think you
should join this. I think you’re committing yourself to something you haven’t committed
yourself to.”
Question: I have a lot of respect
for what you say, but yet I notice the tone of authority that
you’re denying a certain amount of spiritual freedom to those who haven’t made up their
mind.
Fritz: Listen, I don’t care what anybody believes. But the T.S. is a working organization you
see that, that’s what it is, it’s a working organization trying to get something done. Now why
should people join a working organization and say “I have the gravest doubts about its
bona fidence.
Voice: Oh no, it....
Voice: I’d like to see a show of hands of the people who recognize the Society
as a working organization
as far as their own personal belonging is concerned.
Voice: What do you mean by -
Voice: How many people go
to lodge meetings to serve, and how many go to get something
out of it.
If you
go to get something out of
it, I don’t call it a working organization.
If you go there to serve, then I say, show your hand.
(Many
voices all at once) You do both, you do both - you go to get, so that you can serve
more effectively.
Voice: Well, I’m not saying that no one goes to serve, and perhaps E.S. is the place where
all the hands would show, I don’t know.
Fritz: Somebody back there
is shyly raising a hand . . . .Now look
here, there are two propositions here.
One is the Theosophical Society - Harry’s trying to bring that home to
us and get a show of hands. The T.S.
is a program of work, see. And if you think that is
important you certainly want to get
in and bat the ball and do
the best you can. Unfortunately
it also involves living
up to
a very high standard at the same time,
you see. It isn’t like opening a stationery shop or something. It’s a little tougher than that. Alright. But
that’s one thing by itself. Now the other thing, which is entirely independent,
is your private life, what goes on
inside you, you see that. And I don’t give a darn what goes on inside
you - I’m your friend you understand - I don’t care what goes on inside you. But if you
come out with propositions about this
working organization, then it becomes
public business. And what the Society
is trying to do is plain as could
be. There’s no problem in
that. It’s trying to teach a realistic philosophy that will restore knowledge
to man of what man and the universe
really are. That’s what it’s doing. It’s not trying to make a creed or
a dogma or private revelations or salvationism
or something. I don’t know whether your
question can be put though, Harry,
because everybody I suppose believes
he is being serviceable even in going
to a meeting - even if he never does anything else, see what I
mean? I doubt whether that is the highest
service a person can give, but that
unfortunately is prevalent. You know,
meeting in a meeting is a beneficial
thing in itself - it’s a good thing
to have people quietly meeting and studying.
Question: What does Harry mean by service?
Voice: Well, as I see it,
maybe this freedom thing gets into it also, we don’t really carry the
ball to the world really, and the idea of a working organization implies to me that you’re
gearing yourself to carry the ball to the world.
Question: How are we to do that?
Fritz: We’re not carrying it effectively, I agree with Harry there. You weren’t here when I
was talking about this - was it yesterday morning? The history of the Society? You know,
Harry, the Society has had a tumultuous
history - thirty, forty years, very serious problems
and so on. It is only now coming out
from under them. And at the same time
it is only now getting hold of this
new material . . . . I agree with
you that we haven’t been delivering the
ball. But now the question is with
regard to the future, and that’s what concerns us here.
What do we do in order to make sure
that we carry the ball from here on?
I don’t think you
can do a darn thing except in terms
of a program, which the Masters make
clear They are conducting anyhow. The
are quickening science, They’re guiding science, They’re even
releasing inventions thereby . . ..
And They are running terrible risks
on Their own behalf and on our behalf.
And the question
is,
are we moving fast enough to supply the
metaphysics and philosophy that goes
with quantum theory, relativity,
genetics, etc? We aren’t. Now, if we speeded that up, I believe a tremendous curative, I mean purifying, what
shall we say? sort of the issuance
of new criteria would come about. And
you could work much more effectively.
Well
now, I was telling
you, Emily is going to parcel this protoplasm
stuff, it will come to Seattle,
see?
Now who is going to study
it? That’s the question, who is going to use it? To
whom are you going to send notices
in the universities and the
clubs sometime and say:
“We’ve got some very interesting stuff organized around this Seifritz film”. And even if
they have seen the Seifritz film,
what does it mean. Right? We’re gonna do that also with the
air principle. I’m trying my best to buy, and don’t care what it costs, another film, more
marvelous than Seifritz’. It’s the first expert photography of the living mitotic process. I don’t
know what that means to you. You know,
everybody is made out of cells. All
cells are reproducing practically all the time.
You are a quivering mass of reproduction
- you’re
reproducing by the million inside you
all the time. As cells die, new cells
come up. Alright, we got a picture of this. It is unbelievable.
It’s a German picture. We’re going to release all
of this to the lodge no matter what
the universities do with it. They buy
these films too but we’re going to release them as a part of a total rational texture of Theosophy,
of meaning. If the Seattle and the
other lodges pick this stuff up, I
think we can deliver the
ball.
Question: How in the world do
you pursue work with .... high level scientists in the Foundation
for Integrated
Education without letting them
know you’re a theosophist?
Fritz: Oh, they all know I’m
a theosophist.
Question: Well, do any of them get interested in Theosophy?
Fritz: Yeah, I tell you, starting
with my president, who is Kirtley
Mather, and Henry Margenau who is director
of research, and these men are fully familiar with my association
with the Theosophical Society. And
the curious thing is that they respect the Society because I
seem to have some clues about how to put learning together. They
get the
flavour of Theosophy in this way. In
other words, if you use the material to prove that there is a
growing structure of explanation for the universe, that they
prize. Of course, if one
came to them and said “Gentlemen you gotta believe in reincarnation, karma, life after
death, the astral plane, and avichi” they would politely leave for somewhere else. One
doesn’t do that. But then one doesn’t do that anyhow, does one?
Question: But you were speaking
of taking Theosophy to the world. And I was thinking of the people
that
you’re taking theosophy to.
Fritz: Well, I’ll tell what we’re doing and my friends know this perfectly well in the
Foundation. We’ve begun this slow preparation of education materials which the
theosophical philosophy explains, but
which the learned world can explain in detail, not philosophically,
but in detail.
And by
moving along that ridge between the
two things,
one shall join these worlds together
on the facts, on experience, not on hypotheses. Nobody
can look at that magnetor without having
to say to himself “How the devil does that work?”
Now, the physicist tells him the quantum part of it, but we tell him the other part. And I
showed that Gestalt psychology stuff yesterday morning. We know quite a lot about that,
that the Gestalt people don’t know. And I have this piece on space lattices I showed the
other night. We know what that means in a way they don’t know. Because we have a larger
and more commodious fabric. If only we could stick it another few years, Austie says I’m
always saying this, anyhow I stick
it. What else? Anybody want to go wash up before lunch?
Voice: Fascinating Fritz.
Fritz: Thank you. Anyhow the Mahatma Letters are fascinating. READ ‘EM!